The Barclays Premier League Thread 2013/14

[Baddar]

We will be when we're able to pair Rooney and RVP together again. Promise!

[Sam]

Moyes won't be sacked even if we miss out this year. Fergie will have enough sway to make sure that doesn't happen. Sometimes you have to think more long term than short.

[Plubby]

I'm not saying that Moyes *IS* Fergie, but if you give Fergie the time and chances you did at the start, Moyes should surely get a minimum two years...

[Baddar]

I agree with that, but football is different now. We're halfway through the season and 5 (I think that's accurate) PL teams have different managers compared to August.

[Noah]

As a serious question for Manchester United fans, what do you think would have to happen for United to sack Moyes? Not saying he should be, not saying that he shouldn't be, just wondering what the feeling is among supporters.

If we don't get CL football, he may well be sacked.

I think this post is the nail on the head. Get top 4, Moyes gets another season, don't and I think they'll cough out as much as necessary to get Klopp... Not that I think that will solve anything because the problem is the squad far moreso than the manager

And for the reason you mentioned, I don't think he should be sacked. It has been a shocking season by Utd's standards and opposition fans have been quick to jump on Moyes because of that. But looking at it, we're within touching distance of a CL position, into the last 16, and a few points behind Liverpool (I know we've played one more) who are having what's supposedly an amazing season.

If the team finishes 5th or lower, there is always a chance he gets sacked. You can't rule anything out.

However I agree with Baddar/Sam, that I don't think or believe it will happen.

He'll get time to craft the team he wants, over the summer and If he missed out a second year running, he'd obviously be in trouble. Of course there's also the possibility the team does exceptionally poorly next season and he goes before then but I don't see the team being that bad.

If we are crafting scenarios, in which he is sacked, the most likely one I see is Utd failing to make the champions league again in 14/15.

However I see the team somehow snatching 4th this year anyway.

[Baddar]

I know it's hard to get quality players in in January, but I think Moyes could struggle in the summer too. We all know how last summer panned out, and it's a World Cup year this time, so I doubt anything will be set in stone until after the tournament. And then of course the "no time for the player to get a full pre-season in with us" excuse that managers like is busted out, frustrating just about everyone.

Is the Ander Herrera deal dead? It looked all but done in August. The player wanted to join so unless Athletic are being ridiculous about a fee, that should be happening by now.

[Plubby]

I agree with that, but football is different now. We're halfway through the season and 5 (I think that's accurate) PL teams have different managers compared to August.

Right, which is why as much as I disagree with the decision to fire AVB, if there's ever a structure to do it, Spurs' is the correct one - it's why a role such as the Director of Football makes sense. Managers make personnel decisions to protect their job for today and tomorrow, not to necessarily have the best squad 5-10 years down the track.

[Nerf]

I agree with that, but football is different now. We're halfway through the season and 5 (I think that's accurate) PL teams have different managers compared to August.

Right, which is why as much as I disagree with the decision to fire AVB, if there's ever a structure to do it, Spurs' is the correct one - it's why a role such as the Director of Football makes sense. Managers make personnel decisions to protect their job for today and tomorrow, not to necessarily have the best squad 5-10 years down the track.

Erm... good managers do.

[Colly]

Yeah I can't agree with that at all, and don't really see how it fits with Spurs who are now operating with a completely inexperienced manager for a season and a half. Ten year plans don't start like that, especially when the expectation was pushing on to Champions League football again in the short term.

[Plubby]

It fits because if ownership decides that tactics are the cause of the problem, you can fire the manager and the DoF still puts in the personnel who will benefit the club long-term and then you go hire the right tactical guy.

Conversely if you find you've signed the wrong players, or the players you have weren't what you expected but the manager/coach is getting the most out of them tactically you can replace the DoF and get someone in who gets the correct guys.

Again, this is all for naught if you make a bad decision to terminate a guy or choose a bad guy to replace it.

[Colly]

Are you making the argument that its easier to change the manager to fit the players rather than the other way round (if you've got a DoF), because that's genuinely an interesting suggestion.

I just think that with Spurs that just over complicates things, having to work out whether the issue is that the players are wrong or that the manager can't motivate them is one uncertainty too many for me. Particularly when with AVB the players just didn't get enough time so neither applies.

[Plubby]

Are you making the argument that its easier to change the manager to fit the players rather than the other way round (if you've got a DoF), because that's genuinely an interesting suggestion.

I just think that with Spurs that just over complicates things, having to work out whether the issue is that the players are wrong or that the manager can't motivate them is one uncertainty too many for me. Particularly when with AVB the players just didn't get enough time so neither applies.

Invariably when something goes wrong with a professional sports team, either you have the wrong players, the wrong tactics, or both. Unless you think it's both, it creates less turmoil AND is theoretically cheaper to split the manager role into two - an X's and O's tactical coach, and someone whose job it is to acquire talent.

And I agree on AVB - I don't think it was right to toss him out when they did because the players and AVB didn't have the time to gel. But GIVEN that apparently Levy wanted to see a turnaround faster than the one he got, I think that Spurs' structure made the transition easier from a big-picture perspective.

Put as simply as I can, if you're a full-control manager with Gareth Bale money to spend and you're aware that you might be turfed by New Year, I don't think you go and acquire all of Eriksen, Soldado, Lamela and Chiriches. You might go get Soldado, sure - but probably not Chiriches and Lamela. You might go spend that money on someone who is more likely to help you now. Turns out Chiriches has been just fine, but I think they'd have had in mind to phase him into the first team over a year or so when they signed him.

[Nerf]

It's a manager's job to look to the future even if they aren't going to be a part of it. Hence why every manager in the world (with the clout to do so, at least) looks to sign young players too. Even just using the example of Rodgers in his first window, before the scouting department was established, he signed Samed Yesil not knowing whether he'd be around to see him break into the first team or not. That's their job, to build a sustainable structure that works whether they're there or not. This is also why it makes much more sense to replace an outgoing manager with one similar in style (see Martinez > Rodgers > Laudrup) because you don't get a ridiculous transitional period that way. Are you suggesting that Spurs should have used all the Bale money on more guaranteed starters? Because that's kind of the reason you're in this mess in the first place.

[Plubby]

Wut?! No, that's not what i'm suggesting at all! How did you even draw that conclusion?!

I was making no comment whatsoever about what any specific team should have done. I was making big-picture statements about how teams and managers approach transfers in the context of front-office structures. I used Spurs as an example because i'm the most familiar with them. I could have talked about the tenuous position of David Moyes but I opted against it because I only follow Man United on the scoreboard.

I don't think Spurs should have spent the money on starters, I think their signings will be shown to be good in time. Moreover, as it pertains to what I actually did say, i'd also have to think that AVB should be fired for signings someone else made.

[ChrisSteeleAteMyHamster]

I think that on quality alone, Soldado, Paulinho, Lamela, Chiriches and Eriksen should all end up in the strongest first eleven. They're all great signings. True Soldado hasn't found his form yet but he's still got 10 goals this season despite only getting any support recently. Eriksen is showing good form, Paulinho is frankly amazing despite his shooting, Chiriches just needs to improve his ecision making at this level but as an actual tackler and distributer he's great.

Lamela took a season at Roma and then started getting amazing. Sherwood seems to be behind him and in his sub appearances before getting injured he looked very smooth and assured on the ball.

Chadli and Capoue are clearly squad players / subs but they've both been very good at that. I can't wait until Vertonghen is back too. He's the best centre back I've ever seen play for Spurs.

[Jimmy]

I'm also pretty sure AVB would've shut up shop against Liverpool and played 10 men behind the ball if he thought a worsened scoreline against Liverpool would cost him his job. Think Hammy got it right about all the signings, they'll come good. Each one of them has all been hit by injury, which hasn't helped the transition at all. We're lucky we have a squad big enough to cope with it, but injuries have been pretty awful this year.

[Starvinho]

What a fucking strike!

Boooo disallowed for offiside.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Starvinho

[stokeriño]

Dubious call.

[Dynamite]

Very harsh not to give that.

[Starvinho]

There was no one directly in front of the keeper so it should've stood to be honest. That was a rocket, the keeper had no chance anyway.