England - The Southgate Years

[Lineker]

22 minutes ago, Rich said:

Or he needs a complementary ass man to help him tactically

So you're saying he's a road dogg?

[GA!]

2 minutes ago, Lineker said:

So you're saying he's a road dogg?

£5 says Niner replies in the next hour.

[Bobfoc]

I agree that England's World Cup record of four wins against teams they were expected to beat, two defeats against a team they were expected to lose to and a close defeat against a team they were fairly evenly matched with was neither a rousing success nor a major disappointment. The draw opened up favourably for them, but it was a lot of fun to watch. 1990 was similar in many ways, with extra time victories over Belgium and Cameroon in the knockout rounds following two draws and a win in the group stages making the run look a bit better than it really was.

2006 was surely England's best chance at winning a World Cup since 1970, and that was because there were no outstanding teams in international football at the time. There were several good, but not spectacular sides, and it turned out to be Italy who rose to the occasion. I think you could have replayed that tournament a few times and got a few different winners. England just didn't really look like winners in that competition, and even if they'd got past Portugal in the Quarter-Finals, I doubt they'd have got past France with a strike force consisting of Peter Crouch and a 17-year-old Theo Walcott.

[GA!]

Just now, Bobfoc said:

I agree that England's World Cup record of four wins against teams they were expected to beat, two defeats against a team they were expected to lose to and a close defeat against a team they were fairly evenly matched with was neither a rousing success nor a major disappointment. The draw opened up favourably for them, but it was a lot of fun to watch. 1990 was similar in many ways, with extra time victories over Belgium and Cameroon in the knockout rounds following two draws and a win in the group stages making the run look a bit better than it really was.

2006 was surely England's best chance at winning a World Cup since 1970, and that was because there were no outstanding teams in international football at the time. There were several good, but not spectacular sides, and it turned out to be Italy who rose to the occasion. I think you could have replayed that tournament a few times and got a few different winners. England just didn't really look like winners in that competition, and even if they'd got past Portugal in the Quarter-Finals, I doubt they'd have got past France with a strike force consisting of Peter Crouch and a 17-year-old Theo Walcott.

England in 2006 was, by all accounts, the peak of their territorial between league teams bullshit. They had a lot individual quality but Gerrard and Lampard seemingly didn't play well together, neither did Cole/Terry and Ferdinand/Neville iirc. And they only really had Rooney as an effective striker back then, but couldn't figure out a way to utilise him properly other than for him to run all over the field and hope he got a decent pass.

Also WAGs. Lots of WAGs.

[Bobfoc]

1 minute ago, GA! said:

England in 2006 was, by all accounts, the peak of their territorial between league teams bullshit. They had a lot individual quality but Gerrard and Lampard seemingly didn't play well together, neither did Cole/Terry and Ferdinand/Neville iirc. And they only really had Rooney as an effective striker back then, but couldn't figure out a way to utilise him properly other than for him to run all over the field and hope he got a decent pass.

Also WAGs. Lots of WAGs.

Plus Rooney was clearly not match fit after his injury. Michael Owen was made of glass and his injury was inevitable, and with Eriksson admitting that he'd never seen Walcott play, that left Peter Crouch as England's only remotely reliable forward. He did fine, to be fair to him, but he wasn't going to scare any decent defences on his own.

As much as Roy Hodgson gets flak for leading England to their worst World Cup performance in 2014, I don't think his side were any worse than Capello's in 2010. At least Hodgson had a difficult group, whereas Capello had the infamous "EASY" acronym and still only managed two draws and a 1-0 win over Slovenia, before getting stuffed by Germany. He didn't do well with Russia in 2014 either. I think Capello was a good manager to have during a qualifying campaign, but he didn't seem well suited at all to the month-long tournament setting.

[The Lusophone]

Maguire's legal team has launched an appeal, which under Greek law nullifies his conviction and means he no longer has a criminal record... so expect a call up from Gareth I guess?

[9 to 5]

1 hour ago, GA! said:

£5 says Niner replies in the next hour.

Enjoy your windfall.

[TCO]

42 minutes ago, MadJack said:

Maguire's legal team has launched an appeal, which under Greek law nullifies his conviction and means he no longer has a criminal record... so expect a call up from Gareth I guess?

Do you honestly thing this is all one big conspircay and the Greek police all came from nowhere and arrested poor Buddha quoting pacifist Harry Maguire? At the very best he was a mouthy shit who antagonised the police an got himself arrested while hammered drunk. That's not befitting of an England player of Man United captain and he should be punished.

I have no idea why you're defending him so much because he kicks a football for the team you like.

[Moses Julep]

59 minutes ago, TCO said:

Do you honestly thing this is all one big conspircay and the Greek police all came from nowhere and arrested poor Buddha quoting pacifist Harry Maguire? At the very best he was a mouthy shit who antagonised the police an got himself arrested while hammered drunk. That's not befitting of an England player of Man United captain and he should be punished.

I have no idea why you're defending him so much because he kicks a football for the team you like.

I don’t have a dog to pick in his fight and whether or not Maguire is guilty, his conviction is unethical. I know it’s been pointed out that it’s common in Europe for these types of things to happen but whether a case is routine or not, it is absolutely not okay for the prosecution to disclose evidence like this. I’ve pled my share of cases in criminal court back in my younger days and the justice system in my country (Canada) has it ingrained in law that the prosecution can’t disclose evidence like this and that the case would be thrown out if they did.

Maybe it’s the old Innocence Project intern in me but I hate seeing the system take advantage of anyone, even when it’s a bastard that plays for a crap team. 

[METALMAN]

16 minutes ago, Moses Julep said:

I don’t have a dog to pick in his fight and whether or not Maguire is guilty, his conviction is unethical. I know it’s been pointed out that it’s common in Europe for these types of things to happen but whether a case is routine or not, it is absolutely not okay for the prosecution to disclose evidence like this. I’ve pled my share of cases in criminal court back in my younger days and the justice system in my country (Canada) has it ingrained in law that the prosecution can’t disclose evidence like this and that the case would be thrown out if they did.

Maybe it’s the old Innocence Project intern in me but I hate seeing the system take advantage of anyone, even when it’s a bastard that plays for a crap team. 

There's a difference between suggesting that a conviction is unethical - which I wouldn't dispute, at least based on the information I've seen - and claiming that there is a conspiracy and that the system is inherently corrupt though. 

[Moses Julep]

57 minutes ago, metalman said:

There's a difference between suggesting that a conviction is unethical - which I wouldn't dispute, at least based on the information I've seen - and claiming that there is a conspiracy and that the system is inherently corrupt though. 

I will suggest there is no conspiracy but that the system is inherently corrupt and or broken. 

[The Lusophone]

2 hours ago, TCO said:

Do you honestly thing this is all one big conspircay and the Greek police all came from nowhere and arrested poor Buddha quoting pacifist Harry Maguire? At the very best he was a mouthy shit who antagonised the police an got himself arrested while hammered drunk. That's not befitting of an England player of Man United captain and he should be punished.

I have no idea why you're defending him so much because he kicks a football for the team you like.

If he played for anyone else I'd be defending him just as much. Him playing for United doesn't really factor into it.

And at no point have I suggested Maguire never did anything wrong, nor have I suggested that there is a conspiracy. What I do think is that the Greek process is inherently unjust and preventing the defence from seeing the evidence until mere hours before the case started is part of that.

If you don't think that, cool, but who Maguire plays for plays no part in my opinion of this case. Maybe my awareness of the case, I and most people probably wouldn't know about it if it was a Crewe player or a Southend player etc etc. But not my opinion of it.

[METALMAN]

3 hours ago, Moses Julep said:

I will suggest there is no conspiracy but that the system is inherently corrupt and or broken. 

It's not especially wise to form generalisations about a whole system on the basis of a single case. I would suggest that doing so is quite xenophobic.

Edited August 26, 2020 by metalman

[Moses Julep]

37 minutes ago, metalman said:

It's not especially wise to form generalisations about a whole system on the basis of a single case. I would suggest that doing so is quite xenophobic.

I think a country that changes its laws to downgrade bribery of public officials from a felony to a misdemeanour has serious problems. I also think a country where the government and the Bar association turned a blind eye to a scandal about judicial secretaries altering court documents has a serious problem. I also believe a country where the Church holds a great deal of power over the judges in provincial regions has a serious problem. The issues with Greece’s judicial system are not new and do not strictly pertain to Harry Maguire.

Ultimately, I believe every criminal justice system is broken and flawed to a certain extent and I certainly cannot claim to know what criteria the European Court of Human Rights upholds, but in regards to Greece they’re not doing a very good job.

[METALMAN]

7 hours ago, Moses Julep said:

I think a country that changes its laws to downgrade bribery of public officials from a felony to a misdemeanour has serious problems. I also think a country where the government and the Bar association turned a blind eye to a scandal about judicial secretaries altering court documents has a serious problem. I also believe a country where the Church holds a great deal of power over the judges in provincial regions has a serious problem. The issues with Greece’s judicial system are not new and do not strictly pertain to Harry Maguire.

Ultimately, I believe every criminal justice system is broken and flawed to a certain extent and I certainly cannot claim to know what criteria the European Court of Human Rights upholds, but in regards to Greece they’re not doing a very good job.

Perhaps, but I would say there is a very big difference between "serious problems" and "inherently corrupt". 

A couple of things that are worth noting: the Greek parliament quickly recategorised bribery as a felony following strong criticism from the Council of Europe - the organisation that the ECHR is part of - so they aren't entirely useless.

I assume you, like me, found information on the latter two issues in this article, as there seems to be scant information about them elsewhere (although I only waded a few pages into Google, to be fair.) If so, it's probably worth noting that the article is undated. However, it refers to Petros Manouvalos as an "independent MP". He was expelled from his party in 2005 and was no longer an MP by the 2007 Greek elections, so this would suggest that the article is around 13-15 years old. I would question whether it remains relevant.

In any case, my claim is not that the Greek criminal justice system is not corrupt. I don't know enough to determine that one way or another. (It is probably worth noting that a number of reputable sources and metrics conclude that it isn't corrupt. There are, of course, serious problems - just as you would find in any other system.)

Instead, my claim is that you should not decide that the system is corrupt simply on the basis of Harry Maguire's case and some national stereotypes, which is what I'm generally seeing.

[Lineker]

Conor Coady and Ainsley Maitland-Niles have been added to the squad.

[Colly]

Grealish has been called up.

 

[Baddar]

Greenwood and Foden have been naughty boys.

[Chris2K]

I don't wish to generalise, although I am, but this pandemic has shown that footballers really are the least intelligent sportspeople out there. This Foden/Greenwood thing is just the latest proof of that, and I'm sure there has been a disproportionate number of COVID cases for football compared to all other sports.

[Baddar]

Neither will travel to Denmark for the next game.