The Emirates FA Cup 2019/20

[Colly]

Manager, not players. And a customer didn't shaft him on scheduling, Klopp's side failed to win the first tie, it wasn't exactly out of his control.

If nothing else it's a bloody home replay, what's he going to do, watch it on the fucking telly?

Edited January 27, 2020 by Colly

[The Lusophone]

2 hours ago, Tigerstyle said:

If people want to get pissed about Liverpool promising their players time off, and sticking to it, I don’t know what to tell you.

Doubt you’d like it if your work cancelled the holiday you had booked coz a customer shafted you on scheduling.

Relegate 4 teams from the premier league one season with 2 coming up. 18 team league, done.

Spain, France and Italy all manage just fine with a 20 team league. This dumb February break is only there because the Premier League didn't want to change their Christmas period cash cow, which is where a break would actually do some good and is probably needed.

[RazorsEdge]

Tbh I think it is really unprofessional on Klopp's part. Even as a Man Utd fan I find the man hard to dislike but I just think this is really rude to Shrewsbury that even he won't turn up. And the players earn that much bloody money that they shouldn't be whinging about having to play one extra tie during a break.

4 hours ago, Tigerstyle said:

Doubt you’d like it if your work cancelled the holiday you had booked coz a customer shafted you on scheduling.

I have had this happen to me on multiple occasions. I didn't like it but I was being paid to perform a job and at least here in Australia leave is an entitlement. It is up to you and the employer to agree on a time when leave best suits you, if you cannot come to an agreement it falls to the employer to book leave for you at their discretion. If I was on Premier League money I would not be complaining about playing one more fixture.

[MDK]

6 hours ago, Tigerstyle said:

Relegate 4 teams from the premier league one season with 2 coming up. 18 team league, done.

Bollocks. If we got relegated out of the football league just because a few premier fancybois can't handle 38 games a season I'd find where you live and cut your Jacobs off.

[Benjamin]

4 hours ago, RazorsEdge said:

I have had this happen to me on multiple occasions. I didn't like it but I was being paid to perform a job and at least here in Australia leave is an entitlement. It is up to you and the employer to agree on a time when leave best suits you, if you cannot come to an agreement it falls to the employer to book leave for you at their discretion. If I was on Premier League money I would not be complaining about playing one more fixture.

That's horrible. Your leave should be your right.

Also I'm pretty sure you'd be saying differently if you were actually on Premier League money. 

 

[RazorsEdge]

5 minutes ago, Benjamin said:

That's horrible. Your leave should be your right.

Also I'm pretty sure you'd be saying differently if you were actually on Premier League money. 

 

Well it makes sense if you think about it, you are entitled to leave (and companies have to give it to you) but you aren't entitled to go on leave during the busiest period for the company you are working for etc. It's why most people have leave over Christmas because their factories etc. close down. I know people that would rather keep working over Christmas and take leave off during winter, but it doesn't work that way. It does suck, at one job I accumulated 12 weeks worth of leave (4 weeks per year so 3 years) but I could never find a suitable time to book it off with work. Made for a nice bonus when I left the company, though.

And yes I am sure I might think differently if I was on PL money but it is 1 match, I just don't get why it is such a huge deal.

EDIT: And just to be clear, I am more upset that Klopp isn't going to be there. He's the first team coach, Shrewsbury's fixture is against Liverpool not Liverpool U23's, he should be there.

Edited January 28, 2020 by RazorsEdge

[Adam]

Klopp's attitude is pathetic, and arrogant. Liverpool fans justifying it are either being hypocritical because they'd slate Man City or Utd for doing the same thing, or else they're just ignorant towards all football outside the elite level.

The FA Cup is really important to clubs like Shrewsbury. We got to the 5th Round last season and it paid for some much needed improvements to our training ground, it makes a big difference. Look what coming back to draw with Liverpool meant to the Shrews fans on Sunday.

You wanna play less games? Make the Champions League shorter, not longer as they are planning. Suddenly Liverpool have the league title in their sights for the first time in 30 years and the FA Cup doesn't matter? You would have killed to win the FA Cup during this trophyless barren run between 2006 and 2019 (save for one League Cup which also was deemed unimportant by Klopp and co this season).

The winter break has been handled poorly, but it's no excuse for Liverpool. Other Premier League teams have a replay to play too. They won't be sending their academy manager and only kids. A squad is there for a reason.

As it is, the 5th Round draw has thrown up a trip to Chelsea for Shrewsbury if they can beat the Liverpool kids. A fair reward I'd say.

[Hobo]

There is always a wailing and gnashing of teeth over slights to the FA Cup. Because it holds some lofty position in the minds of people based on, essentially, nostalgia.

It has long been overshadowed by European trophies. It's Final no longer one of the few televised football games.

Man United  withdrew from the competition completely in the 99/00 season. Yet the world still turns.

Teams and not just in the top flight  rotate heavily as is. Often preferring to put league performance over a cup run.

In Liverpool's case with perhaps the exception of his first few months in charge Klopp has regularly rotated and fielded weaker teams in the cups. Neither the League nor FA Cup have been a priority.

Klopp has always been very direct about how he hates the amount of games players have to play. He has been a big advocate of the winter break.  In December he literally had to go to Qatar with his first team and the Football League stood stubborn and shot their own competition in the foot.

Other EPL clubs should field their academy teams I think. Then maybe next season the FA might respect the winter break.

They probably wont though. Just like when United withdrew 20 years ago, all this kerfuffle will subside and the Shrewsburys of the world will still get there big money ties and larger clubs will field weaker teams. Periodically supporters and the media will get knotted up in debates on "disrespecting" the cup

The actual organizers should be the ones working out how to make their competitions respected. Which they don't really.

As a Liverpool supporter, I dont think I've cared much about the cups at all since I was a teenager. I didnt even watch the Shrewsbury match truth be told. Nor could I be particularly bothered what any other club does.

[Colly]

None of this is about using a squad and fielding "weaker" players though, this is about a manager deciding a game is beneath him.

16 minutes ago, Hobo said:

Other EPL clubs should field their academy teams I think. Then maybe next season the FA might respect the winter break.

And this is just silly. All the clubs signed up to the fact that an FA Cup replay would take place in the winter break if required.

[RazorsEdge]

Yeah any argument about Klopp not going is invalid unless there has been a case of a manager not going to a cup game because he couldn't be arsed before this, if there is I can't remember it.

[Benjamin]

2 hours ago, Adam said:

Klopp's attitude is pathetic, and arrogant. Liverpool fans justifying it are either being hypocritical because they'd slate Man City or Utd for doing the same thing, or else they're just ignorant towards all football outside the elite level.

The FA Cup is really important to clubs like Shrewsbury. We got to the 5th Round last season and it paid for some much needed improvements to our training ground, it makes a big difference. Look what coming back to draw with Liverpool meant to the Shrews fans on Sunday.

You wanna play less games? Make the Champions League shorter, not longer as they are planning. Suddenly Liverpool have the league title in their sights for the first time in 30 years and the FA Cup doesn't matter? You would have killed to win the FA Cup during this trophyless barren run between 2006 and 2019 (save for one League Cup which also was deemed unimportant by Klopp and co this season).

The winter break has been handled poorly, but it's no excuse for Liverpool. Other Premier League teams have a replay to play too. They won't be sending their academy manager and only kids. A squad is there for a reason.

As it is, the 5th Round draw has thrown up a trip to Chelsea for Shrewsbury if they can beat the Liverpool kids. A fair reward I'd say.

Liverpool won the FA Cup in 2006, right?

I’ve never understood the significance of the FA Cup, even when we won it (I’m pretty sure it was 2006). It’s never been a cup about meritocracy, due to the single game elimination style. It also makes the replay system awkward, because only teams that draw with their opponents have to play a whole other game, which then puts them at disadvantage to their opponents who might have only played one game while facing less tough opposition. 
 

I think if the domestic cups are so important to the lower league teams then the cups should only be restricted to them, because more often than not their the ones that end up winning it, anyway. How often does a lower-tier team or heck even a mid-tier PL team made it to the finals? Less than a handful in the last decade? 
 

Making the Champions League shorter doesn’t make sense, they make more money, their a higher level of football, why would you want less of that and devalue a more prestigious competition? 
 

Also, Klopp being in charge of the replay would either mean that he’d be dealing with a group of staff and assistant managers that he’s no familiar with, unless he makes all his assistant managers and coaches to cancel their winter break leaves as well. Makes more sense for him to put the U23 coach in charge where he’d be more familiar with the coaching staff and the players.

[Hobo]

The manager delegating to an assistant or coach the natural extension of rotating in my view.

From my perspective, it seems like Klopp takes the winter break idea seriously and the other clubs do not. Because he has always talked about it. He's always been vocal on the subject of players needing breaks.

I would rather see club staff and players get a break now and then. Getting burnt out is pretty terrible no matter what you do.

The problem is the FA, UEFA etc etc don't care. The tv companies don't care about it. They all just want to profit. The media dont really care. Fans also don't care that much in general.

[Adam]

8 minutes ago, Benjamin said:

Liverpool won the FA Cup in 2006, right?

I’ve never understood the significance of the FA Cup, even when we won it (I’m pretty sure it was 2006). It’s never been a cup about meritocracy, due to the single game elimination style. It also makes the replay system awkward, because only teams that draw with their opponents have to play a whole other game, which then puts them at disadvantage to their opponents who might have only played one game while facing less tough opposition. 
 

I think if the domestic cups are so important to the lower league teams then the cups should only be restricted to them, because more often than not their the ones that end up winning it, anyway. How often does a lower-tier team or heck even a mid-tier PL team made it to the finals? Less than a handful in the last decade? 
 

Making the Champions League shorter doesn’t make sense, they make more money, their a higher level of football, why would you want less of that and devalue a more prestigious competition? 
 

Also, Klopp being in charge of the replay would either mean that he’d be dealing with a group of staff and assistant managers that he’s no familiar with, unless he makes all his assistant managers and coaches to cancel their winter break leaves as well. Makes more sense for him to put the U23 coach in charge where he’d be more familiar with the coaching staff and the players.

You're a Liverpool supporter who isn't even certain that they won the FA Cup in 2006? It's one of the most famous matches in this country in the last 20 years. And it adds to my point, doesn't detract from it, that Liverpool won it that year as it seemed to be a pretty important achievement at the time. It sure seemed to be in the eyes of Steven Gerrard, Jamie Carragher, Rafa Benitez and the rest of the team. When Klopp went 3/4 years without winning a trophy as manager, I bet all Liverpool fans would have liked an FA Cup win to celebrate some success rather than finishing 4th or 8th in the Premier League.

On the bolded bit - the competition wouldn't be important to us lower league sides if the big sides weren't in it. Shrewsbury don't get the revenue, attention of excitement from a cup run against Oxford and Doncaster that they do against Liverpool and Chelsea. I'm also not even sure I understand what you mean by that last bit? Watford were in the final literally last season. Wigan won it in 2013. Hull, Aston Villa, Crystal Palace, Stoke and Portsmouth have all been in the final in the last ten years. Go tell fans of all those "mid-tier" teams that getting to Wembley in the FA Cup Final doesn't mean anything to them.

The Champions League is not devalued by playing less games in it. The current plan is to add another group stage or extend the current one, for no reason other than the big teams earning even more money. But adding to the fixture congestion and player fatigue is fine for the pursuit of extra piles of cash, just take it away from the domestic game ey. That attitude is exactly why the top few teams have so much of the money in the sport, and people are seeing their lesser clubs go out of business or plunge into oblivion.

Your last paragraph is nonsensical as well, since it is Klopp himself deciding to send the kids. Just rotate the squad like you already have done for the initial tie. The fact he isn't turning up himself, even if he fields a youth team, is disrespectful to Shrewsbury and to the competition. It is a first team fixture. He is the first team manager. I can't just say I'm not showing up to work tomorrow because I don't deem the tasks I've been set worth my time, I'll leave them to someone else.

We can debate the winter break's timing and the necessity of replays all day, but they aren't the matter at hand. Liverpool/Klopp's decision is the issue. The FA should sanction them even if it doesn't really do anything.

17 minutes ago, Hobo said:

The manager delegating to an assistant or coach the natural extension of rotating in my view.

From my perspective, it seems like Klopp takes the winter break idea seriously and the other clubs do not. Because he has always talked about it. He's always been vocal on the subject of players needing breaks.

I would rather see club staff and players get a break now and then. Getting burnt out is pretty terrible no matter what you do.

The problem is the FA, UEFA etc etc don't care. The tv companies don't care about it. They all just want to profit. The media dont really care. Fans also don't care that much in general.

I think a winter break is a fine idea, but the scheduling of it this season has been pretty stupid though. Nothing wrong with Klopp taking that seriously, and I actually don't really mind what happened with the League Cup game because they were basically made to play two games in two days on different continents so Klopp and the senior squad couldn't possibly have done that. But this is a different story.

Fans of the elite teams may not care, because they've been conditioned not to by said money-hungry governing bodies and TV companies, but I can assure you a great many fans of football teams up and down the country care about the FA Cup and care about having the rare opportunity to take on the big boys on a national stage. We loved hosting Crystal Palace live on BBC in the cup last season - nobody ever talks about Doncaster Rovers on TV or in the papers, but on that day they did. Same goes for Shrewsbury facing Liverpool, or any one of the dozens of similar ties that get thrown up by the FA Cup draw. It is a unique, special competition that the popularity of football in this country was built on the back of, that has been running longer than the League itself and has brought countless priceless memories, moments and achievements to players, staff and fans alike for well over a century, including in the present day.

That Liverpool are taking this attitude towards it does all of those people a disservice and displays how out of touch with the 99% those that make up the 1% at the top of the sport have become.

[RazorsEdge]

If Liverpool deemed the FA Cup unimportant then they wouldn't have fielded any first team players in the competition at all. It's utter disrespect to the lower league teams and is only happening because they are running away with the league. If another club like Chelsea, United or City had done this and not Liverpool, Liverpool fans would be rabid. Klopp and Liverpool should be ashamed of themselves.

[Colly]

If absolutely nothing else the two cup competitions are a great opportunity for families to take kids along to games without paying Premier League prices (unless you're a Man Utd fan of course), my daughter has now been to 3 FA Cup games and a League Cup one.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2020/jan/28/david-squires-on-football-fixture-wars-fa-cup-carabao-liverpool-manchester-city

[Bobfoc]

38 minutes ago, Adam said:

Fans of the elite teams may not care, because they've been conditioned not to by said money-hungry governing bodies and TV companies, but I can assure you a great many fans of football teams up and down the country care about the FA Cup and care about having the rare opportunity to take on the big boys on a national stage. We loved hosting Crystal Palace live on BBC in the cup last season - nobody ever talks about Doncaster Rovers on TV or in the papers, but on that day they did. Same goes for Shrewsbury facing Liverpool, or any one of the dozens of similar ties that get thrown up by the FA Cup draw. It is a unique, special competition that the popularity of football in this country was built on the back of, that has been running longer than the League itself and has brought countless priceless memories, moments and achievements to players, staff and fans alike for well over a century, including in the present day.

This hits the nail on the head. The matches and stories the FA Cup produces make it what it is. Seeing Meadow Lane full when Notts County played Man City and got a 2-2 draw was something that I'll never forget, just as the other teams you mentioned will never forget their moments on the big stage. The rare upsets live in the memory for years and, for some clubs, like Hereford and Sutton, have been the greatest moments in their histories.

I could perhaps countenance the idea of scrapping the League Cup if fixture pile-ups became too problematic. It's a midweek competition that doesn't get the same level of support from either the clubs or the fans. Similarly, the EFL Trophy, at least in its current format, could be dropped if they're not going to remove the Premier League reserve teams.

The FA Cup, however, is primarily a weekend tournament that encompasses more or less the entirety of English club football. From lower-tier EFL clubs getting a day out against a Man United or Chelsea to semi-professional clubs getting the once-in-a-lifetime chance to play those same EFL clubs, and even those same semi-pro clubs facing their Premier League heroes (remember Havant and Waterlooville not so long ago?), the FA Cup throws out encounters that people can dine out on for years.

[FLiam]

I don't like it when people stomp all over the FA Cup. 

A day out at Wembley in May to watch your team play in the cup final is one of the best things you can experience as a supporter of this beautiful game of ours. 

For example, the win against Hull a few years back is one of my fondest memories as an Arsenal supporter, and it's not like I've been short-changed for success either. Another would be seeing Christopher Wreh scoring in the semi-final at Villa Park against Wolves in 1998. I saw us play against Wolves and similar sized teams around that time but honestly couldn't tell you much about the scores and the scorers, but the cup games, I will always remember. 

Alterations are needed for the cup but it's importance should never wain in my opinion. 

[DavidMarrio]

The FA Cup has lost some of its shine a long time ago as for however long a large majority of the Prem teams have always played rotated/"weakened" teams, United dropped out of it in 2000, you see loads of empty seats at a lot of grounds. This doesn't knock the importance of the cup for the wider pyramid in England btw. Its just the views of the hierarchy at most of the Prem teams. Hell a fair few lower league teams rotate quite a bit. You've got lower league managers just this weekend not happy with the fact that there's replays. You've got managers like Bruce and Mourinho moaning about the timing of this replay. If Klopp didn't say that he wouldn't manage I don't think people would be in such an uproar.

I think work can be done to help the competition regain some of its stature. 

I'll always enjoy the FA Cup. One of my best memories is going to the semi final against Everton (although, I think Wembley is overrated personally)  and I can appreciate what a good cup run, matches against big teams and what the TV money can do for lower league clubs. I've always wanted us to win everything we are in. I enjoy going the FA Cup games and I'm looking forward to going the replay. 

But I'm not going to lie, this season its low on priority considering we are going for the league and could also make another good run at the Champions League. You can say about the club not winning anything during a big chunk of time but on the same breath, since 94/95 there's only been like 8 different winners. And we could win our first league in 30 years. I know what one I'd rather win this year. 

Plus that team was pretty much stronger than the one that played Everton. The senior players bar Adrian were the ones who were arguably the worst players on Sunday. I've got faith in the kids playing, there's some talented players there. 

Also if we are going to go on about weakened teams, you can then push that argument to the Europa League which is often viewed as a "pain" 

I can admire that he wants to stick with the idea of the winter break. I would argue that theres some players who need match fitness who would probably benefit from playing that game. The likes of Fabinho, Milner, Shaqiri etc. I don't agree about him not managing the game. 

I think this whole issue also broadcasts wider issues between the governing bodies of the FA, the Premier League and the Football League. 

[The Lusophone]

United only withdrew from the FA Cup at the request of the FA, as a note. Bit different to Klopp and Liverpool deciding they aren't going to turn up because the Premier League arbitrarily decided their needed to be a break in February, a month with quite a lot of football in usually.

[MDK]

Give the winners of the FA cup a CL spot and see how quickly teams start to take it seriously