Premier League 2023/24

[Adam]

I agree with him - watching that game tonight it felt like Spurs as a club had a real Loser's Mentality.

Maybe not the players (maybe, cos there certainly were moments) but the way the fans were. Any fan who actually celebrated City's goals and chanted "are you watching Arsenal?" is missing the point of football in my opinion. These are people who apparently would rather see their rivals fail more than their own team succeed.

If Spurs had won tonight, they'd have had a shot at the top 4 on the final day, and the fixtures have fallen for them in that regard. Instead, you've missed out on what is the ultimate season objective to a club coming from a lower starting position in Villa, and seem almost happy to lose a game to a side you've got a good record against, albeit the best team in the country.

I find it all very weird.

[Cymbols]

How can anyone hate this 

 

[FLiam]

6 minutes ago, Adam said:

I agree with him - watching that game tonight it felt like Spurs as a club had a real Loser's Mentality.

Maybe not the players (maybe, cos there certainly were moments) but the way the fans were. Any fan who actually celebrated City's goals and chanted "are you watching Arsenal?" is missing the point of football in my opinion. These are people who apparently would rather see their rivals fail more than their own team succeed.

If Spurs had won tonight, they'd have had a shot at the top 4 on the final day, and the fixtures have fallen for them in that regard. Instead, you've missed out on what is the ultimate season objective to a club coming from a lower starting position in Villa, and seem almost happy to lose a game to a side you've got a good record against, albeit the best team in the country.

I find it all very weird.

This is a point I have been trying to make. It's like Tottenham cannot exist outside of an Arsenal bubble. That sort of mentality will never get you anywhere.  

Here you have a manager wanting to install a winning mentality but a large portion of the fanbase are wanting the team to scupper their own chances of success to stop Arsenal winning a trophy. Case in point, two Spurs fans were kicked out of the ground for celebrating City's first goal. I agree, it's a losers mentality. Harsh but fair. 

[stokeriño]

I understand Ange being frustrated on a professional level. He's trying to do a job and has no reason to place any value on the North London rivalry except when it serves that end.

But I guarantee Arsenal fans (or Insert Equivalent Rivalry fans) would also prefer Spurs (or etc.) to miss out on the title if the positions were reversed. You can rationalise "yes but slim chance of Champions League" all you want, but nothing takes place in a vacuum.

Maybe if the rivals in question won the title every other year anyway, they could let it go. But a first title in 20+ years is significant beyond its face value, and I don't think it's a "losers' mentality" to pick 'winning' a emotionally-meaningful battle over a straightforward league position battle.

[DavidMarrio]

Lets be honest as well. Spurs form and how leaky the defense was they weren't realistically gonna get anything from that game other than a draw. 

I do think there is a smidge of hollier than thou attitude about it and its being made out like every single Spurs fan wanted them to get beat. It's an easy coping mechanism as a Spurs fan to be like ah slim chance of Champions League is gone but Arsenal aren't gonna win the league. It's easy to judge when the shoes on the other foot

Also, you're in a situation of relying on another team to do you a favour in your title rival's game in hand. You dropped points elsewhere. The league wasn't won by City at Tottenham's ground... it was won when Arsenal had a really bad mid to end of December by losing to Villa, drawing at Anfield (with help of Odegaard playing basketball in the box), losing to Fulham and West Ham. 4 points from 15 in a run of games isn't going to help you win the title.

[Chris2K]

I can understand Ange's frustration from a "want to win every game" mentality, but given the way we have been playing for the last two months I have no issue with anyone taking solace in scuppering Arsenal by losing this game. 

If we had been on a five match winning run, then went into the Man City game with a losing mentality purely to disrupt Arsenal, then I'd understand any negativity towards fans enjoying this defeat. Instead we've only won 3 games out of the last 10 (against the current 17th, 18th and 19th placed teams, all at home), haven't kept a clean sheet since March 10th, and don't look like a squad capable of being any kind of threat in the Premier League let alone the Champions League. 

So why not have a slight smile that this particular bad result in the sea of many has affected our biggest rivals? 

[Jimmy]

10 hours ago, FLiam said:

This is a point I have been trying to make. It's like Tottenham cannot exist outside of an Arsenal bubble. That sort of mentality will never get you anywhere.  

Here you have a manager wanting to install a winning mentality but a large portion of the fanbase are wanting the team to scupper their own chances of success to stop Arsenal winning a trophy. Case in point, two Spurs fans were kicked out of the ground for celebrating City's first goal. I agree, it's a losers mentality. Harsh but fair. 

Peak Poch years we had more of a rivalry with Chelsea because Arsenal weren't relevant to us. 

It's reflective of where we are, Arsenal are on a great run and have been in two title challenges and now we're rebuilding. It's all contextual, isn't it? It's easy to pretend to be above a rivalry when you're on top. 

I am confident nearly every Arsenal fan would be the same if the situations were reversed. The pretending that you're all above it is quite silly. 

I don't have a problem with what Ange is getting at, but you don't go for the fans when we've lost 5 out of 6 and the same fans serenaded him and his team off when we lost 4-1 at home to Chelsea. Last night was an exceptional circumstance and something I hope we don't have to go through again. The fact everyone's talking about this instead of the fact we played our best game since probably Villa away is on Ange and that's quite annoying. 

Edited May 15 by Jimmy

[Jimmy]

11 hours ago, Adam said:

I agree with him - watching that game tonight it felt like Spurs as a club had a real Loser's Mentality.

Maybe not the players (maybe, cos there certainly were moments) but the way the fans were. Any fan who actually celebrated City's goals and chanted "are you watching Arsenal?" is missing the point of football in my opinion. These are people who apparently would rather see their rivals fail more than their own team succeed.

If Spurs had won tonight, they'd have had a shot at the top 4 on the final day, and the fixtures have fallen for them in that regard. Instead, you've missed out on what is the ultimate season objective to a club coming from a lower starting position in Villa, and seem almost happy to lose a game to a side you've got a good record against, albeit the best team in the country.

I find it all very weird.

Sorry, more on this. 

Ange has been saying all season that getting top 4 isn't a marker of success for him. It's about how the team is developing and growing. 

We got Top 4 two years ago (when Arsenal bottled it, no less) and then what happened in the next season was we finished 8th and Arsenal finished 2nd. 

We know more than most clubs that Finishing Top 4 doesn't guarantee anything. I'm committed for the proper rebuild that the club needs - structurally, on the pitch, all of it.

I truly don't think this Spurs team would be ready for Champions League. We still need a massive turnover of players who can play the way Ange wants. We've had no European football this year and still had an injury crisis so bad that Emerson Royal and Ben Davies payed CB for a month.

And it's hard to feel aggrieved about missing out on Top 4 when we've lost 5 of the last 6 and put in abject performances against Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea.  

Like sure, if Top 4 was in our hands if we'd had won yesterday I'd have felt different. But I feel very good about the path we're on, I'm very excited to be in a European competition next year I genuinely think we can win and now we don't have to suffer a lifetime of Arsenal fans holding it over us that we helped them win the league. 

I've loved this season more than the last 4 or 5. I actually enjoy watching my team play football again. I actually feel connected to the club for the first time since Poch left. I don't need a Top 4 finish to validate what a successful season is because I've already got my club back. 

And we also got a seismic headloss from Arsenal fans yesterday. Win win tbh. 

[Gazz]

11 hours ago, Cymbols said:

How can anyone hate this 

 

To be fair, that's what I imagine an average night out with Martinez is like anyway.

[METALMAN]

Having spent my lifetime supporting whoever plays England because of my petty, small-time mentality I think I can say with some authority that Spurs fans have a petty, small-time mentality.

[Colly]

Definitely those Spurs fans celebrating Man City scoring. It's small club mentality.

[Adam]

2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Sorry, more on this. 

Ange has been saying all season that getting top 4 isn't a marker of success for him. It's about how the team is developing and growing. 

We got Top 4 two years ago (when Arsenal bottled it, no less) and then what happened in the next season was we finished 8th and Arsenal finished 2nd. 

We know more than most clubs that Finishing Top 4 doesn't guarantee anything. I'm committed for the proper rebuild that the club needs - structurally, on the pitch, all of it.

I truly don't think this Spurs team would be ready for Champions League. We still need a massive turnover of players who can play the way Ange wants. We've had no European football this year and still had an injury crisis so bad that Emerson Royal and Ben Davies payed CB for a month.

And it's hard to feel aggrieved about missing out on Top 4 when we've lost 5 of the last 6 and put in abject performances against Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea.  

Like sure, if Top 4 was in our hands if we'd had won yesterday I'd have felt different. But I feel very good about the path we're on, I'm very excited to be in a European competition next year I genuinely think we can win and now we don't have to suffer a lifetime of Arsenal fans holding it over us that we helped them win the league. 

I've loved this season more than the last 4 or 5. I actually enjoy watching my team play football again. I actually feel connected to the club for the first time since Poch left. I don't need a Top 4 finish to validate what a successful season is because I've already got my club back. 

And we also got a seismic headloss from Arsenal fans yesterday. Win win tbh. 

I take your points, and you know an awful lot more about Tottenham than me, but it's really about how the crowd was last night for me, and Ange has alluded in that clip above to people within the club sharing this mentality of wanting to lose the City game.

Newcastle overachieved last season and consequently weren't "ready" in a sense to be in the Champions League. But the experience they got, the revenue gained, and certainly that night against PSG I can tell you made it more than worth it - you always want to be in the mix than on the outside looking in, and whilst it wasn't in Spurs' hands no, it is a fact that had you won last night, you had a shot at it - playing the worst team in the league (one of the worst in PL history in fact) whilst Villa are away at one of the division's form teams.

Of course it's still a good first season under Ange and post-Kane if Spurs come 5th, no debating that and I think it'll be a respectable achievement. But the fact is, the stadium felt like it was a pre-season game last night and it had to affect the players. City were miles away from their best and could have been beaten. It's even in the little stuff like Son not really connecting with his shot when clean through against Ortega, or the slackness of the foul on Doku for the penalty. It all feeds in together.

And I'm sorry, but after 25 years watching football I will never, ever understand people (not you Jimmy but the Spurs fans that are being talked about) seeming to care more about their rivals failing than their own team succeeding. It's antithesis to the will to win leagues and trophies, and those people should spend less time being bothered by Arsenal, a club who haven't won anything meaningful in 20 years anyway.

If one day Everton are hunting a Champions League place (lol) and have a shot at it by beating Liverpool's title rivals, best believe I will be baying for Everton to win that game.

[Jimmy]

13 minutes ago, Adam said:

I take your points, and you know an awful lot more about Tottenham than me, but it's really about how the crowd was last night for me, and Ange has alluded in that clip above to people within the club sharing this mentality of wanting to lose the City game.

Newcastle overachieved last season and consequently weren't "ready" in a sense to be in the Champions League. But the experience they got, the revenue gained, and certainly that night against PSG I can tell you made it more than worth it - you always want to be in the mix than on the outside looking in, and whilst it wasn't in Spurs' hands no, it is a fact that had you won last night, you had a shot at it - playing the worst team in the league (one of the worst in PL history in fact) whilst Villa are away at one of the division's form teams.

Of course it's still a good first season under Ange and post-Kane if Spurs come 5th, no debating that and I think it'll be a respectable achievement. But the fact is, the stadium felt like it was a pre-season game last night and it had to affect the players. City were miles away from their best and could have been beaten. It's even in the little stuff like Son not really connecting with his shot when clean through against Ortega, or the slackness of the foul on Doku for the penalty. It all feeds in together.

And I'm sorry, but after 25 years watching football I will never, ever understand people (not you Jimmy but the Spurs fans that are being talked about) seeming to care more about their rivals failing than their own team succeeding. It's antithesis to the will to win leagues and trophies, and those people should spend less time being bothered by Arsenal, a club who haven't won anything meaningful in 20 years anyway.

If one day Everton are hunting a Champions League place (lol) and have a shot at it by beating Liverpool's title rivals, best believe I will be baying for Everton to win that game.

Again, if like Newcastle (and like Villa...and sure, Everton), we'd spent so long outside of Europe's top competition I'd probably feel differently. 

But we were in it last year and went out meekly to Milan in the round of 16 because we had a coach who hated us and wouldn't risk attacking. We were in the final five years back. We've had the dream European run and I've been very clear I wouldn't swap the memories of that CL run for an FA Cup because what we experienced was incredible. We're still going to be in the Europa League, a competition we should not feel we are above, and I hope Ange backs up his talk and takes that competition seriously.

I think rivalries, pettiness and all sorts are what football's all about on some level. God knows, as Spurs fans, we have to do plenty of self-deprecating and take our fair share of shit. I've no shame in taking joy out of playing a small part in potentially denying that lego head rat a league title. And I'd expect the same back from Arsenal fans. 

Edited May 15 by Jimmy

[Gazz]

Now watch us pip you for 5th when you lose to Sheff Utd...

[FLiam]

5 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Peak Poch years we had more of a rivalry with Chelsea because Arsenal weren't relevant to us. 

It's reflective of where we are, Arsenal are on a great run and have been in two title challenges and now we're rebuilding. It's all contextual, isn't it? It's easy to pretend to be above a rivalry when you're on top. 

I am confident nearly every Arsenal fan would be the same if the situations were reversed. The pretending that you're all above it is quite silly. 

I don't have a problem with what Ange is getting at, but you don't go for the fans when we've lost 5 out of 6 and the same fans serenaded him and his team off when we lost 4-1 at home to Chelsea. Last night was an exceptional circumstance and something I hope we don't have to go through again. The fact everyone's talking about this instead of the fact we played our best game since probably Villa away is on Ange and that's quite annoying. 

I’m still quite adamant that I’d still want what’s best for Arsenal at that point in time, and in this particular case would be potential qualification for the Champion’s League - but I appreciate your points. 

This all being said, if West Ham manage to get a result and we beat Everton it will be even more enjoyable to see Spurs wanting to see their team lose and it all be in vain.

Also, Postecoglu isn’t the first manager to ask these questions - Conte did, Mourinho did. The culture at Spurs has to change if they’re ever to make real progress.

[Baddar]

 

 

[Jimmy]

1 hour ago, FLiam said:

I’m still quite adamant that I’d still want what’s best for Arsenal at that point in time, and in this particular case would be potential qualification for the Champion’s League - but I appreciate your points. 

This all being said, if West Ham manage to get a result and we beat Everton it will be even more enjoyable to see Spurs wanting to see their team lose and it all be in vain.

Also, Postecoglu isn’t the first manager to ask these questions - Conte did, Mourinho did. The culture at Spurs has to change if they’re ever to make real progress.

Yeah no I get it. As stated before, it's not about Arsenal winning the title, it's about us helping them win the title. We've done our bit now, whatever happens next isn't on us and that's fine. 

But that second point - absolutely not. Mourinho was deflecting because he was fucking shit. Conte was deflecting because he was similarly not up to it. Let's not pretend that Poch didn't have us challenging for titles and nearly winning a Champions League. Our culture is regularly overachieving for our budget and size of the club (and being Spursy, of course).

I'm hoping Ange is the one to take us to the next step of actually winning trophies and titles, but let's not pretend that when Conte and Mourinho said it was anything but trying to save their own skin and hide their own massive failures. 

2 minutes ago, Baddar said:

 

 

Now this is more like it! 

[Colly]

Have to say that Wolves' statement is absolutely spot on. It'll get voted down.

[Kaney]

8 hours ago, DavidMarrio said:

The league wasn't won by City at Tottenham's ground... it was won when Arsenal had a really bad mid to end of December by losing to Villa, drawing at Anfield (with help of Odegaard playing basketball in the box), losing to Fulham and West Ham. 4 points from 15 in a run of games isn't going to help you win the title.

This is the thing that bothers me. I hate the term "bottled it" (for obvious reasons ) and its frustrating seeing people laugh because ho ho ho those cheeky Spurs boys screwed us but actually, not really. The losses to Fulham and Villa were significantly more damaging to our chances and that's the size of it. City have gladly benefitted from us dropping points as much as we would if they had lost to Spurs.

City are shitty and relentless but they're not unbeatable. Liverpool have shown they can keep pace with them, and Arsenal are now showing we can too. I don't feel like we've bottled the league this season and I don't think anyone genuinely belives we have either. One single win against Villa and (Everton aside god willing) we'd be champions, not to get into hitting-the-woodwork territory. I've very much enjoyed this season, however it ends and I'm positive about next year.

[Hobo]

17 minutes ago, Kaney said:

 I hate the term "bottled it" (for obvious reasons )

I also hate it and can't really see how you "bottle it" when you get over 80 points in a season

Team can more likely bottle a cup final than they can a league.