Premier League 2016/17

[stokeriño]

Leicester seemed to be becoming more troublesome in the latter parts of the first half, but were invisible in the second. Lovely routine win in the end.

If Liverpool drop points tomorrow then we'll be seven points clear. Wooo.

[Adam]

56 minutes ago, MDK said:

 

Well yes, actually. Because it isn't all about the money, there is quality and tradition and history - and competition. China has none of these things.

(I'm responding to Paul Hayward here granted, not you Mykey )

[stokeriño]

Robbie Savage: "sports journalists are right, 99 times out of 100".

K.

[MDK]

55 minutes ago, Adam said:

Well yes, actually. Because it isn't all about the money, there is quality and tradition and history - and competition. China has none of these things.

(I'm responding to Paul Hayward here granted, not you Mykey )

Unless we are talking about history and tradition, China has it in spades  

And to be honest, I don't really care if China throw a shitload of cash around. I support a shit club, have always supported a shit club and will continue to support a shit club and the Chinese League will not affect me one bit. And it makes FM much more interesting.

[Plubby]

5 hours ago, Adam said:

Well yes, actually. Because it isn't all about the money, there is quality and tradition and history - and competition. China has none of these things.

(I'm responding to Paul Hayward here granted, not you Mykey )

 

And when you don't have a tradition and history of a great competition you build it with money OR a lot of time. You get the players there with money, the league becomes stronger, it raises China's levels up through grassroots and over time the competition, its tradition and history develops. It's a way of jump-starting that process.

[Adam]

9 hours ago, Plubby said:

 

And when you don't have a tradition and history of a great competition you build it with money OR a lot of time. You get the players there with money, the league becomes stronger, it raises China's levels up through grassroots and over time the competition, its tradition and history develops. It's a way of jump-starting that process.

Oh I get that, totally, but I still see merit in wanting the core European base to remain the "ceiling" - in Mr. Hayward's words - instead of a league like China that is just chucking obscene amounts of money at largely second-rate players after a quick payday.

[Baddar]

Just watching some highlights now. The amount of pens Hull concede is ridiculous. All stone wallers as well. 

Edit: Turns out they should have conceded a 2nd yesterday too.

[Nerf]

1 hour ago, Adam said:

Oh I get that, totally, but I still see merit in wanting the core European base to remain the "ceiling" - in Mr. Hayward's words - instead of a league like China that is just chucking obscene amounts of money at largely second-rate players after a quick payday.

AKA the Premier League

[TCO]

16 hours ago, Adam said:

Well yes, actually. Because it isn't all about the money, there is quality and tradition and history - and competition. China has none of these things.

(I'm responding to Paul Hayward here granted, not you Mykey )

I never got the whole history and tradition thing, it's bollocks. You see it all the time with Man United fans using it as an insult to Man City that they have no history while they're sat in 6th and going to Ukraine on a Thursday night. As if Ahmad, the 12 year old die hard Man United fan from Malaysia watching a grainy Youtube videos of George Best lauding it in the European Cup gives some sort of bragging rights or prestige over any other modern successful club?

Why would anyone care really about what happened in the past, I want to live through my club creating history. Fuck the status quo and and the fixation on tradition, China are trying to create something and everyone is uncomfortable about it. It may not be of high quality now but the only way to get sustained success in football now is to fuck money at the wall and hope it sticks. Not every club can get an official pillow case partner to help buy their way back into success so this is the best way for China to create a global force.

[Adam]

34 minutes ago, Nerf said:

AKA the Premier League

Can't agree with that at all. Outside of the 'big two' in Spain, the world's best players come to the Premier League.

@TCO fair enough, but isn't it slightly against the point to say you want to see your club 'creating history'? If history and tradition don't matter, why bother creating more?

I'm not saying teams/leagues deserve more credit or money or whatever for being good in the past, I don't think Man Utd have divine right to be considered a title challenger when right now they aren't, but I think there's something to be said for a league built on over a century of history, with clubs steeped in community and tradition compared to a bunch of Chinese upstarts chucking what is absolutely ludicrous money around. The sums they are paying for players and particularly the wages are just massively unnecessary. Yes, this aspect of football has gotten way, way out of hand across all clubs but it has ben a gradual inflating process. Why do the likes of Oscar and Tevez need 400-500k a week chucking at them when they probably made 1/5th of that before and would have gone over there for the same wages or slightly more than they were already on? It is beyond reason.

[Noah]

For me a team/game either has to have representation of the area where I live, have a player/s in it that are from my area, or have a rich and storied history.

It's why I don't give a fuck about the A-League.

[Nerf]

35 minutes ago, Adam said:

Can't agree with that at all. Outside of the 'big two' in Spain, the world's best players come to the Premier League.

@TCO fair enough, but isn't it slightly against the point to say you want to see your club 'creating history'? If history and tradition don't matter, why bother creating more?

I'm not saying teams/leagues deserve more credit or money or whatever for being good in the past, I don't think Man Utd have divine right to be considered a title challenger when right now they aren't, but I think there's something to be said for a league built on over a century of history, with clubs steeped in community and tradition compared to a bunch of Chinese upstarts chucking what is absolutely ludicrous money around. The sums they are paying for players and particularly the wages are just massively unnecessary. Yes, this aspect of football has gotten way, way out of hand across all clubs but it has ben a gradual inflating process. Why do the likes of Oscar and Tevez need 400-500k a week chucking at them when they probably made 1/5th of that before and would have gone over there for the same wages or slightly more than they were already on? It is beyond reason.

Right, but where does history begin? The English League didn't have history when it started, and now you're lauding it as the best of the world. You're pretty much shitting on China for doing exactly as the Premier League did in the 90s and continues to do now. Who's to say that in 50 years we're not all sat here talking about how the Chinese League is the place to be if you want to be recognized as an elite player? Everything starts somewhere. I can sit and whinge about City and Chelsea having no right to be title challengers, but that isn't going to stop them being title challengers. The reality is that they are, and everything has a starting point.

[The Lusophone]

I think its fair to be sceptical about the actions of the Chinese League, especially as it could be over as soon as the country gets a new leader - which isn't inconceivable despite Xi Jinping's current security in his position - China's current interest in the sport is fuelled almost entirely by the President. If he, and the sporting authorities in the country, are serious about becoming an actual player in the sport then they'll need more than just Tevez on 800k a week or whatever to do it.

Still think they should bid for a World Cup though. >_>

[Gazz]

I hope it continues, I'm planning on going over there. I reckon an academy coach with a FA level two should be on at least 40 grand a week...

[Noah]

40 grand would be for people who won the champions league on football manager. Don't get any less than your full market value Gazz!

[Kyle]

I reckon Sterling and Silva can't go outside seeing as a strong wind seems to knock them over.

[Baddar]

This is good. If Everton could get at least a point, that'd be nice. 

[TCO]

1 hour ago, Adam said:

Can't agree with that at all. Outside of the 'big two' in Spain, the world's best players come to the Premier League.

@TCO fair enough, but isn't it slightly against the point to say you want to see your club 'creating history'? If history and tradition don't matter, why bother creating more?

I'm not saying teams/leagues deserve more credit or money or whatever for being good in the past, I don't think Man Utd have divine right to be considered a title challenger when right now they aren't, but I think there's something to be said for a league built on over a century of history, with clubs steeped in community and tradition compared to a bunch of Chinese upstarts chucking what is absolutely ludicrous money around. The sums they are paying for players and particularly the wages are just massively unnecessary. Yes, this aspect of football has gotten way, way out of hand across all clubs but it has ben a gradual inflating process. Why do the likes of Oscar and Tevez need 400-500k a week chucking at them when they probably made 1/5th of that before and would have gone over there for the same wages or slightly more than they were already on? It is beyond reason.

It's not against my point though. You think Leicester fans born in 30 years can comprehend what it was like living through last season? The fans who witnessed that will cherish it forever and never tire speaking of it. The same with Liverpool in Istanbul etc. You want the chance to live through it, history is nice but ultimately who really cares? It's a line on Wikipedia you can brag about on Facebook "LAD" pages.

A league built on 100 years of tradition can't happen like it did anymore, the game can't grow organically like it is. You just can't. Following some sort of assumed rules of inflation is ridiculous too. The Chinese have the money and passion so why not use it? They're growing their game the only way they can now. They need local eyes on their game and whether you like it or not, giving Diego Costa or Tevez stupid money is the way to do it. It'll pay dividends as the investment in grass roots takes form and the locals shine.

The problem is, clubs like Man United and AC Milan are trying to have that divine right to be a top club. That's the only reason for FPP and bullshit new Champions League format that's been talking about. You're only allowed to be big in England if you were a top side when Sky invented football in 1992 and have that history. 

[Kyle]

2-0!

[Adam]

1 hour ago, Nerf said:

Right, but where does history begin? The English League didn't have history when it started, and now you're lauding it as the best of the world. You're pretty much shitting on China for doing exactly as the Premier League did in the 90s and continues to do now. Who's to say that in 50 years we're not all sat here talking about how the Chinese League is the place to be if you want to be recognized as an elite player? Everything starts somewhere. I can sit and whinge about City and Chelsea having no right to be title challengers, but that isn't going to stop them being title challengers. The reality is that they are, and everything has a starting point.

I'm not shitting on anything. I don't believe what China is doing is sustainable, chucking money at some players isn't enough. The base isn't there and if they truly want to build said base they need to do a lot more than they currently are. What happened in English football in the 1990s is nothing like this, not even close.

The English league was the first of its kind, the modern sport of football was conceived here. It didn't have any history when it started because there was no history.

@TCO you make some good points, can't disagree with a lot of that. We will see if the local talent and grassroots over there can get to any kind of decent level for it to be worthwhile. Frankly I doubt it, not out of any sense of superiority about England/Europe or anything, but because I don't believe you can build what exists in England, Spain, Germany & Italy by just chucking millions at a bunch of international standard players from abroad.