NBA 2017-2018 Season

[VerbalPuke]

Orlando is 4-1 to be fair.

[Pooker]

On 10/26/2017 at 20:11, Carparama said:

I'm interested to hear yours too! I'm a little iffy on some of the later ranks, and some of these could change as time goes on.

First off, I didn't know I was as high on LeBron as I was until I made this list. Judging by my initial list, I guess my all-time team is:

PG: Magic, Oscar
SG: Jordan, West
SF: LeBron, Bird
PF: Duncan, Malone, Garnett
C: Kareem, Russell, Shaq
With the IR guys being Hakeem, Chamberlain, and Kobe. Huh.

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Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
LeBron James
Bill Russell
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Larry Bird
Karl Malone
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Kobe Bryant
Julius Erving
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitski
David Robinson
John Stockton
Scottie Pippen

Mine would be really quite close to yours. Definitely everything pass Malone is up for debate, hence why it's copied and pasted from yours. For your all-time team, I would put Stockton in over Oscar, Kobe in over West, and maybe Hakeem in over KG. 

Spoiler

Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Magic Johnson
Bill Russell
LeBron James
Larry Bird
Hakeem Olajuwon
Karl Malone
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Julius Erving
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitski
David Robinson
John Stockton
Scottie Pippen

 

 

[VerbalPuke]

You guys have good lists but no way is Stockton ahead of Isiah Thomas for me. 

In other Pistons news, we surprisingly dealt the Clippers their first loss. If Stan can get his shit together with our rotation, and our guys can play solid D we coukd possibly be an interesting team. Maybe a 5th or 6th seed. Just...quit fucking playing Jon Leur, he is absolutely dreadful. 

[gunnar hendershow]

I definitely thought the Malone you all were talking about was Moses. Karl's not even the best Malone of all time!

[Pooker]

I can see the argument for Thomas over Stockton, but to me, Stockton is the greatest pure point guard of all time.

But in what world is Moses better than Karl? The only thing Moses has over Karl is a championship. I could, however, see an argument for Moses being put on the list over KG or Pippen.

[gunnar hendershow]

Karl benefitted from staying healthy longer but from 78-83 Moses was arguably the league's best on both offense and defense. It's much more a matter of comparing player's peaks, the best way generally to compare them due to compilers (of which Karl is probably the most famous). Not that Karl Malone wasn't a great player, but he benefitted greatly from his environment. Stockton contributed greatly to Karl's offensive numbers. It's comparing a C with a PF, so the best way to really get a fair assessment is to look at the defensive metrics and there the advantage is with Moses.

[VerbalPuke]

Rebounding. 

But, thats a good debate I think. Karl and Moses were both pretty fucking good. I think Moses gets lost in the shuffle with their being so many other great centers listed. Karl could be argued as the best power forward ever, him or Duncan. But then Duncan was also a center. 

Moses had some insane years in his day. So did Karl though. 

Here's a few names to consider that might be left off...Charles Barkley, Allen Iverson, Dominique Wilkins, Clyde Drexler. I think I like Barkley over Pippen on my list. 

[gunnar hendershow]

Just now, VerBlood Drive said:

Rebounding. 

But, thats a good debate I think. Karl and Moses were both pretty fucking good. I think Moses gets lost in the shuffle with their being so many other great centers listed. Karl could be argued as the best power forward ever, him or Duncan. But then Duncan was also a center. 

Moses had some insane years in his day. So did Karl though. 

Here's a few names to consider that might be left off...Charles Barkley, Allen Iverson, Dominique Wilkins, Clyde Drexler. I think I like Barkley over Pippen on my list. 

Barkley is another great name to consider.

One thing with basketball is per game stats are easy to get lost in. Players can compile and pad really easily during the regular season. Like someone trying to get 10 assists every game just to have a double-double. Some more advanced metrics that look at numbers per 100 possessions or, say, per 36 minutes sometimes convey a better picture. That's especially true when comparing defensive stats. When you look at numbers like that any top 20 list that doesn't include Moses or Barkley seems silly.

[JasonM]

The Mavs are struggling early on against winnable teams. I guess the good part is that we've made games out of games that were close to being blowouts, but really the team's just not that good right now.

The good news is that we got youth on our side again, and other than Dirk moving around like a mummy on the court, we're clearly (albeit, not really on purpose) working ourselves to a good pick in the next draft.

Wes Matthews needs to go, though. He's a culture builder, sure, and his numbers are more than expected right now. But he's 31 and with that he's the oldest player not named Barea, Harris, and Dirk. Wes is better off being shipped to a team with aspirations as a 6th man or a ranged shooting lockdown swingman, rather than being on a team that's not going to really need his on-court skills for the next few years.

Wes also has a player option for next year, so this might be the best chance to trade him for some youth and/or picks. That way Wes can get some playoff ball, too.

And yeah, like I said, Dirk's a mummy on the court. I love him so much, but this is the dropoff everyone expected three years ago. His shooting is dire, and he can barely run around for pick and pop's either. Also, he can't really start off the bench because if he does he's even less nimble because he's not warmed up.

I love Dirk as much as the next guy, but man it's not pretty to watch anymore.

[gunnar hendershow]

3 minutes ago, Jasonmufc said:

The Mavs are struggling early on against winnable teams. I guess the good part is that we've made games out of games that were close to being blowouts, but really the team's just not that good right now.

The good news is that we got youth on our side again, and other than Dirk moving around like a mummy on the court, we're clearly (albeit, not really on purpose) working ourselves to a good pick in the next draft.

Wes Matthews needs to go, though. He's a culture builder, sure, and his numbers are more than expected right now. But he's 31 and with that he's the oldest player not named Barea, Harris, and Dirk. Wes is better off being shipped to a team with aspirations as a 6th man or a ranged shooting lockdown swingman, rather than being on a team that's not going to really need his on-court skills for the next few years.

Wes also has a player option for next year, so this might be the best chance to trade him for some youth and/or picks. That way Wes can get some playoff ball, too.

And yeah, like I said, Dirk's a mummy on the court. I love him so much, but this is the dropoff everyone expected three years ago. His shooting is dire, and he can barely run around for pick and pop's either. Also, he can't really start off the bench because if he does he's even less nimble because he's not warmed up.

I love Dirk as much as the next guy, but man it's not pretty to watch anymore.

Dirk had a noticeable drop-off last year, and it sure looks like it's carrying over into this season. 

[VerbalPuke]

5 minutes ago, damshow said:

Barkley is another great name to consider.

One thing with basketball is per game stats are easy to get lost in. Players can compile and pad really easily during the regular season. Like someone trying to get 10 assists every game just to have a double-double. Some more advanced metrics that look at numbers per 100 possessions or, say, per 36 minutes sometimes convey a better picture. That's especially true when comparing defensive stats. When you look at numbers like that any top 20 list that doesn't include Moses or Barkley seems silly.

Also what I noticed for guys like Moses or Duncan, their career averages don't look as impressive because of their longevity. Example is, they played beyond their prime, and while still effective as double digit scorers, they weren't putting up the same stats they did as young men. So basically you see 19 a game for Duncans career but that really doesn't tell the story of how good he was in his prime. 

Actually, Moses is probably a better example than Duncan in that case.

[JasonM]

Just now, damshow said:

Dirk had a pretty sharp drop-off last year, and it sure looks like it's carrying over into this season. 

Yeah, he dropped 4 points and was less efficient. And he was a caveman on defense, but this year it's even more extreme and everyone is just flying past him on defense, whilst he can't move enough to get open on offense a lot, either. So he's mostly just getting the odd open/trailer/mismatch shots.

Last year was a struggle, this year he's just a 7 foot tall pole.

[VerbalPuke]

Is Dirk the longest tenured NBA player now? He's been around since the late 90s, crazy that he was playing when I was in middle school and now I'm in my thirties. 

Oh Vince Carter is still around apparently. I couldn't believe that when I saw his name in a box score.

[gunnar hendershow]

1 minute ago, VerBlood Drive said:

Also what I noticed for guys like Moses or Duncan, their career averages don't look as impressive because of their longevity. Example is, they played beyond their prime, and while still effective as double digit scorers, they weren't putting up the same stats they did as young men. So basically you see 19 a game for Duncans career but that really doesn't tell the story of how good he was in his prime. 

The last 7 or 8 years of Moses' career were nowhere near his apex. Big men can hang on a lot longer because their size is a commodity, and if they can still contribute defensively you'll let whatever scoring drop-off they have happen. I always like to compare averages during peak years before I compare total career numbers.

[JasonM]

11 minutes ago, VerBlood Drive said:

Is Dirk the longest tenured NBA player now? He's been around since the late 90s, crazy that he was playing when I was in middle school and now I'm in my thirties. 

Oh Vince Carter is still around apparently. I couldn't believe that when I saw his name in a box score.

VC, Manu, JET, Dirk, J-Craw are the five oldest players in the NBA right now.

Of those, only Dirk and VC debuted in 98. JET debuted in 99, Crawford in 00, and Manu in 03

[VerbalPuke]

Who is JET? 

I forgot about Crawford and I just watched him a few nights ago. 

[Pooker]

And that's how I rate Karl better than Moses. Karl never had a drop-off, besides his very last season where he was hurt for half of it. I, personally, can't stand advanced stats and metrics and all that other crap. If you have to get into per 100 possessions or per 36 minutes to discuss who is a better player than who, its just arguing for the sake of arguing. I watched Karl a ton in his career and have only seen highlights of Moses of his career. From what I've seen, Karl was the better player. And to those who say that Karl was only so good because of Stockton and Stockton was only so good because of Malone, I extremely disagree. Those two would have thrived playing anywhere with anybody.

I still harbor bad feelings towards Vince Carter. I always wanted to see him play in person when he was with the Raptors but every time they came to Utah, I would get tickets and he would be hurt!

[JasonM]

4 minutes ago, VerBlood Drive said:

Who is JET? 

I forgot about Crawford and I just watched him a few nights ago. 

[VerbalPuke]

Oh wow, Jason Terry. Had no idea he was still around either. 

[gunnar hendershow]

Yeah Terry is coming off the bench for the Bucks, which is a good spot for him as a veteran.