Premier League 2020/21

[Liam]

13 hours ago, DavidMarrio said:

That's bollocks that goal being disallowed. It bounces of Dier's hand onto Firmino's hand whilst Dier is grabbing and all over Firmino.

 

So the ref should have blown up for a foul/infringement three times rather than letting you go and score?

53 minutes ago, Nerf said:

Both disallowed goals last night are shambolic. Son's highlights how completely out of touch the current offside guidelines are, and Salah's once again indicates how English referees don't even know what the fucking rules are. IFAB have clarified that the handball would have had to immediately resulted in a goal/assist or it doesn't count as an infringement. This is the state of English football. The referees have all the time in the world, get to look at a million fucking replays and angles, and still don't even know the rules. It's farcical.

I went and had a look and that seems the rule for accidental handball only. They obviously deemed that there was more to that handball. I don't think it was on purpose, but the ball effectively gets brought under control by his hand, so it comes down to interpretation at that point.

I guess the argument, as always, is to what extent that is a clear and obvious mistake. Some would argue 'missing a handball' is clear and obvious, whilst some would say not. I guess it is upon the referee himself at that point in time to then stick to their original decision.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Liam

[Nerf]

25 minutes ago, Liam said:

So the ref should have blown up for a foul/infringement three times rather than letting you go and score?

I went and had a look and that seems the rule for accidental handball only. They obviously deemed that there was more to that handball. I don't think it was on purpose, but the ball effectively gets brought under control by his hand, so it comes down to interpretation at that point.

I guess the argument, as always, is to what extent that is a clear and obvious mistake. Some would argue 'missing a handball' is clear and obvious, whilst some would say not. I guess it is upon the referee himself at that point in time to then stick to their original decision.

I'm not sure in what world you can argue it's intentional handball, though. Firmino tries to chest it down, while being fouled by Dier, the ball ricochets off Dier's hand onto Firmino's. We're at the point where a team has effectively had a goal disallowed because they were fouled in the build up. Whatever your allegiances, that should concern you for the health of the game.

To your other point in response to David, yes. That's where we're at. The build up had two potential outcomes: a foul for Liverpool, or a goal for Liverpool. The end result is a foul for Tottenham. That is, frankly, absurd, and a consequence of the incessant meddling with the rules over the last few seasons.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Nerf

[METALMAN]

2 hours ago, Colly said:

Chelsea seem to be setting the bar incredibly low for Tuchel.

 

You might sneer, but it is well established that there is a positive correlation between number of passes and the number of expected goals, which is what football is all about at the end of the day.

[gunnar hendershow]

Okay

[METALMAN]

 

[Liam]

1 hour ago, Nerf said:

I'm not sure in what world you can argue it's intentional handball, though. Firmino tries to chest it down, while being fouled by Dier, the ball ricochets off Dier's hand onto Firmino's. We're at the point where a team has effectively had a goal disallowed because they were fouled in the build up. Whatever your allegiances, that should concern you for the health of the game.

For the record, I feel once you give a goal like that, you have to stick with it. Cricket has umpire's call, whilst NFL and I think Rugby Union has the whole thing where you need concrete proof to overturn something or whatever. You aren't looking at whether contact was made or not on a foul or an off the ball incident, this was the interpretation of a handball that - in the process of play - wasn't deemed significant enough to warrant a reprimand. Therefore, you should probably stick with your decision.

I hate the idea of accidental and intentional handball anyway as I think it is rare that players try to handle a ball. However, some accidental handballs clearly benefit a team or player, so should be adjudged as such. 

 

Edited January 29, 2021 by Liam

[Colly]

This is my problem with a lot of the rule changes over the last few years, everything has to be this binary "he's offside or he's not", or "any handball in the buildup means no goal". No one was ever up in arms about an offside that was "about level", and the accidental handball was designed to stop things like that one the other night (was it Sheffield United) where the ball was basically accidentally punched in, not an absolutely inconsequential one 20 seconds earlier when the other team have multiple opportunities to make a tackle.

Football isn't a game with that kind of precision, with the exception of ball over line and arguably the offside rule (if the tech was up to it, which I still don't believe it is). There are nuances, marginal fouls etc etc, but the spirit of the laws are currently being ignored in favour of supposed precision, and it just doesn't work.

It's completely arbitrary too, the fact that goal was disallowed last night but you can score from a corner that should have been a goal kick just sums it up for me.

[Tigerstyle]

I felt like when I watched a highlight, the clip wasn’t even as far back as the ‘handball’ incident

[gunnar hendershow]

Since the benchmark for "obtrusive replay reviews" seems to always come back to the NFL it's worth noting they tried to review a true judgment call (pass interference for those in the know) for exactly one season and it was a disaster and they dropped doing it. You can't review on a play if the officials missed a holding penalty or something, the only plays that can be reviewed are true black-and-white calls. There's still a level of judgment that comes into determining, for example, if a receiver had possession of the ball but there's still a level of precision there (does the ball move? Does he used the ground to secure? Etc)

I think it's safe to say replay in football can be used in clear offside situations, whether a ball crossed the line, and maybe even who gets a goal kick/corner kick/throw-in (though this would be extremely annoying to have happen a dozen times a game). Handballs trend to being purely judgment. Obviously you get your blatantly deliberate Maradona-esque handballs but for the most part players at the very least are very good at feigning a lack of intent in having their forearm strike a ball. It's impossible to litigate and replay review doesn't improve the application of the rule.

[Baddar]

I didn't see any of the incidents last night, but I was content with how VAR dealt with ours against Sheff Utd, even though it worked against us.

For those that didn't see it, Billy Sharp pushed De Gea and it led to the opening goal. Ref didn't see it as a foul, so VAR didn't overturn it.

And then Maguire was pulled up for a foul on Ramsdale, with Martial scoring, but the ref saw that as a foul. Personally, I didn't think there was anything wrong with it, but I also see why VAR didn't see it as a clear and obvious referee error so the on field call stood. 

[DFF]

16 minutes ago, Baddar said:

I didn't see any of the incidents last night, but I was content with how VAR dealt with ours against Sheff Utd, even though it worked against us.

For those that didn't see it, Billy Sharp pushed De Gea and it led to the opening goal. Ref didn't see it as a foul, so VAR didn't overturn it.

And then Maguire was pulled up for a foul on Ramsdale, with Martial scoring, but the ref saw that as a foul. Personally, I didn't think there was anything wrong with it, but I also see why VAR didn't see it as a clear and obvious referee error so the on field call stood. 

I'd probably broadly agree with that assessment, as someone that was rooting for the other side. I think it was the angle the ref had the made the difference in both. 

In the Sharp one, Sharp is behind De Gea and sort of falls into him as a group of three or four jump for the ball. Personally, I don't think it made a noticeable difference to De Gea's jump - he always looked like his arms weren't going to quite get there (and Sharp's involvement would have only knocked him sort of in the right direction of the ball). 

As for the Maguire one, there's one angle from the front that make it look more like Mag impeding Ramsdale's path (other angles made it look like a fair enough jump and the two just collided a little. Ramsdale is bloody awful in the air, so I wasn't surprised he dropped it tbh). I think the ref's position matched up with that front angle and at full pace that's what it looked like to him. 

As you say, VAR's there for clear and obvious errors and neither were etc. 

[Szumi]

https://www.espn.com/soccer/tottenham-hotspur/story/4301450/tottenhams-aurier-left-stadium-after-furious-bust-up-with-mourinho-sources

 

ESPN is reporting the Aurier and Mourinho had a bust up at halftime because he blamed him for Liverpool's opening goal, and Aurier pretty much left the stadium afterwards. If true, can't see him playing for a bit, leaving the stadium during the match.

[Gazz]

*glass shatters*

Is it? Could it be?

It's... Danny Rose!

[Jimmy]

3 hours ago, It's Pronounced Zoom-E said:

https://www.espn.com/soccer/tottenham-hotspur/story/4301450/tottenhams-aurier-left-stadium-after-furious-bust-up-with-mourinho-sources

 

ESPN is reporting the Aurier and Mourinho had a bust up at halftime because he blamed him for Liverpool's opening goal, and Aurier pretty much left the stadium afterwards. If true, can't see him playing for a bit, leaving the stadium during the match.

Annoying cos Aurier is streets ahead of Doherty. 

Incredible the way Jose digs out certain players, but is happy to persist with Dier, who was at fault for two of the goals. 

We were poor last night. I thought that goal was rightfully ruled out for handball, he doesn't control that ball if he doesn't use his arm. Even if it was a foul on Firminho, you shouldn't get a handball as an advantage.

That said, Liverpool were far superior; more aggressive, more progressive, by far the better team.

Missing Poch rn. 

 

[Liam]

The grabbing of Firmino is also a fine example of something that only ever becomes a thing people moan about in situations like this. It happens all the time and rarely ever gets pulled up. It was arguably a transgression, but one that 7 or 8 times out of 10 doesn't end up as a free kick.

[Lineker]

Dier has been bang average at absolute best this season.

[Jimmy]

24 minutes ago, Lineker said:

Dier has been bang average at absolute best this season.

All our CB's have taken in terms to be bang average. Without Sanchez, we lack pace and can't play high up. Without Toby, we don't have someone to pick a pass from defence. Both have been shaky and Sanchez's confidence has been shot after Jose dropped him after the West Ham game. Rodon's looked good, but is young, and makes a pretty costly mistake every time he's played so far. Dier, as you said, has just been bang average. His distribution has been poor and his positioning leaves a lot to be desired when we're not parking the bus. 

And what really takes the piss, is that Liverpool had a ridiculous makeshift CB pairing last night and I'm here moaning about every single one of our fucking centre backs. 

[Kyle]

Feel like half of this Newcastle team should be on a yellow for the amount of times James has been stamped on. It does not help that he's our only attacking player that seems to be switched on today.

[Colly]

If he stopped throwing himself on the floor he'd be harder to stamp on. Mina too.

Much better today, we're actually playing in your half. Still fully expect to lose, but far better than expected.

[Szumi]

Is Saint-Maximam on the bench again because he's still suffering after effects from COVID? That's been my guess but wasn't sure. He's undoubtedly your best (attacking) player so I figured there was a legitimate reason he's on the bench.

And I mean a legitimate reason besides Steve Bruce's incompetence, of course.